I have seen some really good ideas for future DDR Ac Games and all,

However I really need to stress the idea of this.

Betson needs to make their arcade pads much stronger and last much longer.

I hate to use ITG as a example but look at the ITG2 Dedi-Cabs for a second.

Why is it seasors on those machines can last a month or more while the Betson DDR Cabs need a repair every week. Why is it that both the ITG and DDR in my area can get played a large amount but yet the ITG pads can outlast the DDRs by a long shot, sure the ITG pads can pad miss too but expert players are failing Standard Songs on DDR only a short while after a repair while the ITG can last much longer than that. Oni Mode is unplayable in our city atm and there are places that do try to keep up with the repairs too only to find them in that shape in a short time later.

In my area, alot of the ITG Players won't give future DDR games a chance because the pads.

So the my point is, unless the pads get a major upgrade soon, there is no point in adding all of these suggestions or new features in future DDR games if the game is unplayable to some arcades.

The 10 year old design was good but with harder songs like NGO and Hades, they can barely keep up anymore.

With a new stronger and better pad, Tournaments would be more common and more players would get into future DDR games.

So in short of all of this,

Konami needs to work on a new pad design or at least make Betson use the older Extreme Konami Version cause those work good too.

Edit: I was talking about the Betson Pads, sorry for the misundertstanding. 

Konami needs to make their arcade pads much stronger and last much longer.

Why is it seasors on those machines can last a month or more while the Betson DDR Cabs need a repair every week.

Nobody complained about DDREX cabs not being able to withstand months of abuse.

A new pad design isn't needed, Betson just needs to stop using cheap crap for their pads.

This is absolutely no different than the quality of Andamiro ITG2 cabs vs. the RoXoR ones, which comparitively suck in all aspects compared to the Andamrio ones.

um. Well. I own both. I can say, quite confidently, that itg2 dedicabs have a design that is pretty much -identical- to that of ddr machines. Now, I haven't had a chance to look inside a betson cab (mostly because I can't get them to call me back, or answer emails, or respond in any way), so if they've gone off the 10 year old established standard, then they're dumb. I doubt they have though.

I say again: itg2 dedicab pads are -identical- to ddr pads.

If pads are 'wearing out' too quickly then the most likely source of the problem is dirty pads. If you get dirt in the l-brackets, they stick and won't work. If you get a rock lodged in on top of a sensor, it will stick. We've had our dedicab in use in a dirty hole of an arcade for 8 months and because of how much we've cleaned it we have only had to replace two sensors.

Clean your shoes, clean your pads.

The major problem isn't the pads, it is the sensors themselves. Betson's sensors are not of a great quality. Lots of sensors are actually TOO sensitive which can cause "ghost steps" to register even with brand-new sensors (I had this problem a lot this weekend at BZ:Naperville, actually)

moose, like I said already, and like ranatalus stated as well, Betson uses cheap crap compared to the Konami-built DDR cabinets of old.

And also like I said before, this is no different than the difference between an Andamiro and a RoXoR built ITG2 cabinet.

The RoXoR ones are of poorer quality on the whole, using cheaper parts to save money, which was understandable because of the legal matters they were going through, but the point remains. I'm not only referring to the pad itself either, RoXoR cabinets (usually) feature less ram, and speakers of much poorer quality, making them more susceptible to lag, and to the speakers blowing out.

Betson IS cutting back on part quality to save money, don't doubt it, it's true, most people know that already.

Of course proper maintenance will help prolong a cabinet's life, but the sensors will always wear out regardless, and the Betson cabinet's sensors are notorious for wearing out very, very quickly, regardless of upkeep.

Well, metal is metal and unless you're 500lbs I doubt you're going to see any fatigue in the pads themselves. That leaves the no-stick buffers on top of the l-brackets, and as rantalus said, the sensors. Cheap sensors can be replaced with good sensors, and then you have good pads. If your local arcade doesn't want to spring for half decent sensors, then you'll end up with crap pads regardless of who built the cab originally; roxor, andamiro, konami, or betson.

No, DDR and ITG pads DO differ in 3 main ways-

1. The bar.  I think this is obvious, but ITG's bar is higher up and in the form of a P shape, making it wider than a DDR bar.

2. The arrows on an ITG pad are recessed less than that of a DDR pad.  This makes it easier to move your feet around as well as it makes it much easier to heel toe/bracket ****.

3. Sensors.  DDR sensors are much less sensitive than ITG ones.  MUCH less.  And this is the main problem with Betson pads.

I personally prefer Andamiro made ITG2 dedicabs to Roxor ones (arrows feel a bit less recessed in Andamiro ones than Roxor).  I think the pad quality overall is better.  The main difference of between the Andamiro machines and Roxor machines are the parts that were used.  Main downgrade Roxor machines had were the videocards; Roxor cabs used integrated graphics while Andamiro ones had FX5200s, which, while not great video cards, are still a hell of a lot better than integrated.

The first two are entirely correct, but also entirely not valid. The 3rd is moot because, as I've already said, sensors are easy to replace, even to use non-betson sensors. You forgot to mention as well that ITG uses flat screws instead of round tops, the bar pads have slightly different textures, the arrows are shaped differently, and that the colours on the stickers aren't the same.

Andamiro used integrated graphics as well. How do I know? 'cuz I have one. But if you can find itg source that allows (and is preconfigured) for extra graphics card usage, I'd love to have it. I couldn't get it working on my box, 'cuz I'm a linux n00b.

It's also -impossible- to buy itg dedicab sensors anymore. At least, as far as I know. Asking five different vendors, all they can say is "Just snip off the end and twist the wires together." And then when you do that, they work just fine. I'd be very, very surprized if betson is actually manufacturing their own sensors. I suspect they're using the cheap version from the factory instead of the expensive one. I'd love if someone could get a pic of the inside of a sn2 cab so I could verify this ^^

http://www.channelbeat.com/products/parts/dance_dance_revolution_parts/483.html

vs

http://www.channelbeat.com/products/parts/dance_dance_revolution_parts/115.html

How are Dave's points not valid?  I really don't get you.

One of the machines I play on has been around for ages, I'm not sure what it was originally but I know it was upgraded to a DDR Extreme and then DDR Supernova. The sensors work fine (even though there's 2 in each arrow lol) and only break maybe once every 6 weeks or so? And we beat the **** out of them, I don't see how they're not durable?

 Or are you talking about the new DDR cabinets or something?

Did you like...just read the OP and then reply?

I own a Pump it Up SX machine. What keeps them sensitive is less recessed panels + foam which reduces time for a connection. It also has a nice I/O test to tell you which sensors are bad if any at all. But to give you an example of how long the sensors can last. There is a place around here with a machine purchased in 2002... sensors are still good now (2008) They never purchased any new parts for the machine either as the parts that have gone wrong with the machine are still not fixed.

But here pictures of my pad without panels on and the machine itself :

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee61/Kuhazan/S5000343.jpg

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee61/Kuhazan/S5000343.jpg

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee61/Kuhazan/S5000343.jpg

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee61/Kuhazan/S5000343.jpg

So basically if you owned the Betson cab yourself or have access to the machine you could easily fix the problem with some 39 cent foam from a craft store... yes folks it is that simple of a problem to fix. It just needs thicker foam.

The first two are entirely correct, but also entirely not valid.

How are they not valid?  Both things make it much easier to move around on the pad aka score better, and are the primary reasons why I prefer ITG pads to DDR pads.  You make no sense.

You forgot to mention as well that ITG uses flat screws instead of round tops, the bar pads have slightly different textures, the arrows are shaped differently, and that the colours on the stickers aren't the same.

Those are merely cosmetic differences and have no effect on actual gameplay itself, where as the other 3 things I mentioned do.

Andamiro used integrated graphics as well. How do I know? 'cuz I have one

What revision did you machine come in?  Because I highly doubt you have an Andamiro machine if you have integrated graphics.  I've talked to people who have personally talked to Kyle Ward and co who said they cut back on parts on their own machines to save on cost.

It's also -impossible- to buy itg dedicab sensors anymore

Again, wrong.  It was announced about a month ago that Worldwide Video took over support of ITG and have begun selling replacement parts for it, including sensors (which, at $41 a piece, are ridiculously expensive).  If you want, you can check out their prices on this spreadsheet here.

If you just need sensors, you can also try buying directly from Andamiro.  The sensors they use in Pump machines now are the exact same ones in ITG cabs.  I'm not exactly sure how much they'll cost, but you can certainly call them and find out. 

Oh and I'd like to also toss in timing windows.... the harder the timing window the more picky people are going to be with the pad messing up. If DDR SN2 had DDR Extreme timing maybe no one would be complaining at all

If DDR SN2 had DDR Extreme timing maybe no one would be complaining at all

Uh...they both have the same timing windows. 

"How are Dave's points not valid?  I really don't get you."

Not valid because the topic in question here is whether or not the panels/sensors are any good. It's not the bars or the recession of the panels. In that sense, my 'cosmetic' differences are just as valid.

Have you actually BOUGHT the sensors for worldwide dave? And received them and put them into an itg2 dedicab? Until you have, you really can't talk. And that 40$ pricetag is about standard for ddr sensors from any arcade supplier in north america. What's that? You say you can get them cheaper from mymybox? That's great. Are they an arcade supplier? Oops, guess not.

Actually Moose I have to disagree with you there. Channelbeat has them for much cheaper (I think somewhere in the $10-15 per sensor range). Another site that I can't recall the name of right now that RyogAkari posted about on DDRFreak was about comparable, but much better quality. So, right there, you have two alternatives to Betson/Andamiro/WWV.

Have you actually BOUGHT the sensors for worldwide dave? And received them and put them into an itg2 dedicab? Until you have, you really can't talk. And that 40$ pricetag is about standard for ddr sensors from any arcade supplier in north america.

The arcade I go to did, and it made our ITG pads much better.   I believe you should stop talking out your *** now.

You're right, moose.  The recession in the panels is purely cosmetic and has no effect on playing the game whatsoever.  The bar is also completely irrelevant.  No matter what kind of bar you use, you still get exactly the same scores.  Even without the bar.  Yep.

"Channelbeat has them for much cheaper"..... I do think I said "arcade supplier in north america." Last I checked, China wasn't in north america. As far as the unnamed source that someone might have mentioned on ddrfreak, my guess, again, is that's mymybox. Okay, my guess was wrong, it's uniarcade. Also based out of China. So my original statement still stands pretty good ^^

 It's nice that you believe that Dave, but nothing I've said has been any form of starred out word yet. I haven't gotten a response yet from worldwide and I know a lot of others haven't either. If your arcade managed it, good for them, but that doesn't mean that YOU had anything to do with it or that YOU installed it or that YOU paid for it. So... as far as actually ordering arcade machine replacement parts, what -exactly- do you have for -actual- experience?

Kalamari, check out the original post here maybe? Westmiller was talking about pad sensitivity. That really boils down to two things: maintained pads (clean, tight parts, etc) and good sensors. Until someone can confirm that betson has significantly diverged from the established standard for pad design, 'sensitivity' means 'sensors'. It doesn't mean panel recession or flat heads for the screws or bar shape or any of that. ..... and if you look carefully, that was kind of my point all along. It was a reply to Dave's silliness about "pads aren't entirely identical" in a thread that's really just talking about sensitivity. Of course, if you disagree and REALLY want to hold onto the idea that the bar has a great effect on pad sensitivity, please, explain EXACTLY how that works. Feel free to detail the mechanical or electrical connection between any of the sensors in any of the pad designs (including wonky solo pads!) and the bar.

My response that said "the pads are the same" was in reference to this topic, not whether or not their molecular structure was quantifiably identical. It's not really that hard to stay on topic, is it?

Having the pads raised makes it easier to hit the arrows and easier to activate the sensors.  Sounds like that affects sensitivity to me.

EDIT:  And I know that I (and a lot of other players) have a tendency to stomp more the more sunken the pads are. This obviously increases the wear on the sensors.

I think, moose, that some people are thinking of this issue of pad design in a different sense than you are.  The original topic of this thread is about re-designing the current DDR pads.  While the sensors are arguably the most important part of a pad's design, factors like the arrow depth and bar shape do play a role in somone's ability to play the game and hit the arrows accurately.  The bar doesn't have any affect on the sensors and their sensitivity, obviously, but it plays a role in how players activate the sensors, thus making it an important part of pad design.

I'm no expert on the internal workings of arcade cabinets, but I know that there are many arcades who don't care enough about their machines to (after buying a new cabinet) order better sensors and install them.  It is silly to expect all aracade proprietors to purchase the game, and then by new (better) sensors.  The pads should be designed with the better sensors in the first place.  I don't know enough about this topic to make assessments on which companies' sensors are better, I just don't think you can say having bad sensors is not a big deal because the machine owner can by more.  You, as a hardcore player, will by new sensors to keep your machine in tip-top shape, but I don't think we can expect all arcades to do the same.  The machines should come with the better sensors in the first place.

There is no need for everyone to get riled up about this.  Please don't attack other members, and try to be more civil.

Moose, I'm kind of curious as to how it is unreasonable to import things from Channelbeat or Uniarcade when that's what we did for the 8 years before SuperNOVA came out.

I'm not saying it's unreasonable. I've done it. I'm in the process of trying out at least 4 different kinds of sensors from 4 vendors to see which ones have the best bang for the buck. All I was saying was that 40$ was a pretty standard price for sensors from vendors in north america. Dave said it was rediculous, I said it was standard for north america suppliers. That's -all-.

Agora, I don't know if I ever said that "betson's pads are good enough". But I do think  you're right when you say people are thinking of it differently than I am. Please reread my last post when I tried to direct people back on topic though; while the topic may have been 'redesign the pads' everything in the first post related to sensor complaints. Now, whether or not the sensors that come with betson pads are good enough, what is REALLY silly is to buy a new machine (for many thousands of dollars), find it wanting in some area, and then not spend a few hundred extra to make it properly playable to try to recoup the purchase price. It does suck that betson's using cheap sensors (and again, can someone get a picture or proper description of the betson sensors for confirmation?) but the arcade industry as a WHOLE for as long as it's been around has been a DIY bubblegum and duct tape situation. If the arcade isn't taking responsibility to take care of their machines when they're new, then what makes you think they'll take care of them after a period of use? All sensors will wear out and whether you get a few months play time out of it before they wear out or not won't affect the end outcome; they're worn out. In the end, the arcade has to take some responsibility for their machines. Betson's not the only vendor out there (as has already been copiously pointed out) and there's no reason for a bad set of pads to stay bad.

As far as attacking people goes, I hope that wasn't directed solely at me, because I haven't attacked anyone yet. If there's any sort of attacking going on, or lack of civility, it's when people start using starred out words to try to verbally abuse people into submission. All I've done, through this whole thread, is say "hey, guess what, things might not really be exactly the way you think they are."

Are there things that could be done to the pads other than sensor adjustments to 'improve' gameplay? Sure. You could even change the shape of the arrows into more of a pie shape which would let you take smaller steps. That'd make getting scores easier, wouldn't it? Also you could make the height of the bar adjustable for all players to set it how they want. More durable materials could be used for the arrows and screens provided with higher refresh rates. Timing windows can be altered and blahblahblahblahblah. Just press f7 if you want a really GOOD score, right? But seriously, the first post was ALL about sensitivity, so why not stick to that? As far as a 'major pad redesign' goes, I doubt if ANYONE has put ANY money towards r&d for pad design in the past 10 years, because what's there has worked. Things like pad recession or bar shape or anything like that is actually really insignificant when it comes to designing a dancing game platform, take it from one who's actively involved in doing so :P

I mean, seriously, if you want a total overhaul of the pads then you shouldn't even be talking about 'sensors' anymore. Technology has existed for 30 years that makes the ribbon switch an absolutely retarded idea for this sort of application. But what do I know, right?