For another (but similar) perspective, here is another review on the machine made by Brian Ho of the IndyDDR community: http://www.indyddr.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3541

They hadn't finished re-rating songs when the US CS version was released.

I think both sides need to kind of calm down and more closely read what the other is saying (well, not EvilDave really)

blurwoman: Like Dave said, there really are not many people outside of the 14-25 range (with most being in the 16-22 range) that play dance games competitively at this point. However, those outside of the range (both older and younger) are never excluded from entering tournaments and are never ridiculed for it.

One thing we do in Ohio is have "Upper Heavy" and "Lower Heavy" tournaments. Upper Heavy is meant for the more skilled players, while Lower Heavy is for players that are trying to hone their skills and gets better. No one makes fun of someone for being Lower, and Lower players strive to get better so that they can be considered an Upper Heavy player. In fact, we generally force people that win Lower Heavy tournaments to enter Upper Heavy from then on. Neither is considered a "for fun" event--both are seriously competitive. Prizes are weighted more towards the Upper Heavy players (typically 70-75% of the total prize money/items go to Upper) both as a reward for being a better player and to discourage players from entering lower divisions where they are too much better than others.

pags: She isn't saying that she'd divide players up by age; the "best of age" categories would be secondary to the actual tournament (as in, the tournament completes normally, and then the 4 people that placed highest from age 12-15 face off to see who wins that division, then the top 4 in 16-20, etc).

That does kind of make me think, though--what makes you think that the outcomes will be too different? If 5 13 year olds get 2nd, 5th, 8th, 13th, and 20th, they will almost certainly end up in the same order amongst themselves. Why even run the extra rounds?

also, Byron: Who is flaming? I didn't see any.

piepie: I still think that's kind of underrating Sync Oni.

I think instituting constant-rate mods defeats the purpose of even having speed changes in songs, but I guess that's just me.

I also don't think that any other speed mods are really needed but, again, that appears to just be me these days.

Honestly, I think that 1-20 is much more helpful--or, at least, it would be if the ratings were accurate :/

Here is a link that has the current list of known difficulties: http://zenius-i-vanisher.com/v4/ddrgamedb.php

Select "Arcade - Japan - (12-2008) DDR X" from the first drop-down list.

edit: It looks like they changed it back to 1-10 on that page? Weird.

edit2: haha, wrong link. http://zenius-i-vanisher.com/v5beta/ddrgamedb.php?gameid=70

Extreme US home version has a VERY different interface than arcade. Extreme AC is more comparable to Max/Max2, but lots of green.

I don't have a problem with the re-rating, I just disagree with a LOT of the new ratings in comparison to others.

Sunkiss Drop is an 11, CSFILSM is a 14? NGO Oni is a 16, PSMO is a 17? Sync Oni is an 8? Paranoia Max (Dirty Mix) is a 10? What??

No, and I didn't say that because we are better we know more, or that our opinions matter more. I said that we are also some of the most well informed. Obviously EvilDave has his connections with DukAmok; we have our own connections as well.

Also, you're not one to be calling anyone out on (im)mature arguing.

Cata, Kalek is definitely not a fanboy and certainly isn't an idiot.

"I actually liked Supernova...maybe that I'm in the minority and too casual to notice?"

This is probably true. Almost everyone hated supernova. There are a lot of things I don't like about it; only about 10 new songs for the game (even fewer than extreme which didn't have a lot of new songs either, discounting the "DDR version" or "For Extreme" stuff).

"What do you expect me to say to you? 'Oh man, I've been so busy playing Da Capo and Flowers that I never noticed that the rest of the game sucked?'"

If you'd like to use those as examples, sure. Flowers' chart is super late, Da Capo is decent though. Name some other things. I'm sure Modern Girl gets a lot of play, that's a good licensing choice, right? Maybe after that I'll play Flow -true style- because it's way musically better than the original Flow, and those speed-ups make SO MUCH SENSE. Final stage I could play Chikara and have plenty of time to get onbeat before the arrows start, and I certainly won't have to be annoyed by a horribly repetious chart. Oh well, at least it has a good doubles chart!

"Healing-D-Vision heavy singles is the perfect 10."

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh......have you talked to anyone else about this chart? I don't mean to be mean and make it sound like I'm better than you or anything, but do you understand how the basic musical foundation of the steps is completely wrong, which makes the entire chart super annoying to play? Again, like in Flow, why is the BPM double there? Without that BPM doubling and with the chart being 12ths instead of 16ths, I agree; it'd be a great chart. However those are two SERIOUS PROBLEMS (the 16th/12th issue more than the BPM) that totally ruin it.

"Oh and by the way, [DDR street cred]. And I'm from [over there] so I know what I'm talking about!"

Put plainly, Ohio seems to have one of the most active and involved communities in the country. People from outside of Ohio (KY, MI, PA, IN, IL, NC, FL) all post there. Most days, there are most posts made on oddr.net than there are on DDRFreak or even Bemanistyle (even if you take mine out, haha). We have/have previously had some of the best DDR AND ITG players in the country in our community (Kevbo? Goemon? drano? Admstyles? Bungie? PatMicMac? JJSZ?). Eddie from BMS used to post there frequently, and I remember JSB being on there for a bit too. We travel extensively for tournaments and frequently place in them. Several of us own machines. It's not meant to be bragging, or making ourselves seem more important. Without being egotistical, we know that we are good at this game. We know that we know what we're talking about in regards to Bemani (drano, Boone--who was like, the second person in the US to AAA IMLTY, by the way, and he isn't even "notable" in our tournament scene--and myself spoke extensively to the Konami reps at the SN2 location test, and, in fact, they actively sought out our opinion). We're not full of ourselves, just confident.

"I strongly dislike mines, but I don't know what shock arrows are. So just like when IIDX was announced to be pink with friggin butterflies, I'm not rushing to make a judgment."

It's pretty clear that is what they are going to be from what we're hearing. It may not be directly from Konami but I doubt they're going to say anything different. What else could they be?

"The new lights are <u>knee level</u>, and the top lights are <u>angled downward</u>, both of which are major improvements. No more toweling the lights!"

The old ones never bothered me, haha.

Excuse me if I'm more concerned about the core design and style of the game being changed instead of add-ons and aesthetics. Almost everything I'm hearing from EvilDave/DukAmok is not what I want and makes me worry that DDR will no longer be DDR; so e-Amuse can once again wait on the back burner.

No, he's making a reference to 4th mix; additional maniac/heavy/expert stepcharts were called "S-Maniac" on singles and "D-Maniac" on doubles, giving them equal (possibly slightly less) competitive importance.

I am actually a fan of the expanding foot ratings so long as they are going to actually re-rate stuff from before.

Not a fan of expanded speed mods since most of them are pretty superfluous to begin with.

Ranatalus, this is probably your worst post on these forums to date.

Cabinet upgrades have occurred in the past for several other rhythm games. Other rhythm games have naturally gotten harder over time. New features added to other rhythm games usually don't do much to them. Why is the sole fact that the new features in DDR X remind you of ITG a good enough reason for you to almost completely reject this game before anyone on this board even gets a chance to play it?

I never said I was completely rejecting it; I simply said that I think this is going to be what kills DDR. What I meant by "I think this is going to be what kills DDR" is that DDR X is going to make DDR stop being DDR. It will no longer be the game I love and have been playing almost religiously for the last 5 years.

I also would like to point out that GF/DM hasn't had any real features added to them since their beginning and they seem to be doing just fine.

I understand that, in most games, innovation needs to occur to keep the game interesting. It's a natural part of the progression of things, and I'm ok with that. However, not all innovation is good. The idea of mines is something I have never found to be positive, encouraging, or at all conducive to making the charts fun. To quote a friend of mine from another forum:

<u>The point about shock arrows is stupid. We have played with them and most of us dislike them. We dislike them because they are not fun. They are pointless. They are a non-do. Every other successful thing put in the game was "Do a step at THIS EXACT TIME". "do a jump THIS EXACT TIME", "Do a step THIS EXACT TIME and hold it!" Mines will be "Do some steps but OH god do NOT be touching the sensor during whenever." it has no skill based timing to it. It is an annoyance designed to annoy the player, not enhance the play experience. It is much like when a FPS scales the difficulty of a game by just adding foes to waste more ammo on. It doesn't make the game more fun, merely more annoying to play.</u>

Mines are not an addition or enhancement; they are an irritating distraction. If Shock Arrows operate on the same idea as Mines, then there is nothing to be gained by using them.

As much as I have tried to remain an optimist through the difficulties encountered in SuperNOVA 1 and 2, I've stuck with it. After speaking to the Konami representatives at the SN2 location test and having them actively seek feedback from myself and the other people that came with me, I saw that Konami wanted to make a good game. I waited patiently for e-Amusement and understood the difficulties involved in getting that kind of a network infrastructure set up in the United States. I did what I could to promote and communicate this information to arcade operators since Betson wouldn't. I encouraged players whose interest was waning (and managed to get some "old school" players out of "retirement") to stick with it because the series was getting back on track. From what we've seen and heard of DDR X so far, the series has taken a sharp turn in the wrong direction.

You don't know anything about this game other than a list of new features and a picture. How does that give you enough information to say "I know this game won't be better than PIU Pro"?

You misunderstood me--I was trying to say that I was hoping it was comparable to Pump it Up:Pro with regards to the fact that it is considered to be outside of the main series; a spin-off or side project.

Games of skill do not make good redemption games, haha.

Seriously, KingOfLight? Seriously? Are you actually saying that a game shouldn't be fun?

"Please, Konami.  For the sake of all that is Holy, make these "Shock Arrows" something that are only available for play in a separate mode.  DO NOT put them in the stepcharts!"

If nothing else, this.

Edit: I cannot put into words how disappointed I am so far. The addition of Shock Arrows (mines) is nothing I want and nothing that adds to the game.

The cabinet is so striking in similarity to In the Groove cabinets that I am forced to think it's intentional, and, again, it is not something I (and, although I hate putting it this way, the real fans) want.

I am hoping with everything I have that this is comparable to the Pump it U: Pro series. I know that it is not.

After everything that has happened and after all this time, I think this is going to be what kills DDR.

Well, I have to agree with moose for once. People just wanted something new. In the Groove offered harder charts, and that's what people got used to. I know I certainly didn't want incredibly hard charts, and I played ITG1 pretty much daily for the first 6 months my arcade had it.

Now that people have become accustomed to the harder charts present in ITG, they want that in DDR as well. That is another cause and effect relationship. I see it this way:

<u>CAUSE</u>------------------------------------------------------<u>EFFECT</u>

No DDR for several years                                 In the Groove created/released

In the Groove has harder charts                     People want more hard charts

In the Groove 2 has even harder charts          People want more hard charts

Konami announces SuperNOVA                      People want more hard charts

Konami puts harder charts in SuperNOVA2       People want more hard charts

Konami (probably) puts harder charts in X         People want more hard charts

I apologise if this sounds demeaning or like I am talking down to people; I don't intend to sound that way but I can't think of a better way to word what I am trying to say, haha. I generally think what most people want in their "harder" charts are constant fast streams/hands; this explains why a lot of people have moved to Pump it Up, as they use these things much more frequently (especially since DDR doesn't use hands at all).